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ikkivan
Gabber Extraordinaire
USA
433 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2011 : 08:45:27 AM
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I realize this subject has been discussed in several places, but here goes: I am using a free but copyrighted pattern for a hand towel printed from a web site. The information states, "You may not sell, post or share this pattern, or any parts of this pattern. This includes any derivative works based on this pattern, such as incorporating the motif into other works."
Now, I have just realized that this pattern, which I am making for personal use, is the same pattern as for one of the blankets in the Plymouth Encore book for 8-hour baby blankets. Except for different yarn (used two strands together in one) and differences in size and perhaps number of garter stitches on the edges, it's the same pattern. Who is to say I didn't make one of these blankets and say to myself, wow, this would make a great hand towel if I just changed the yarn and size, etc., or vice versa ...???
And for something as basic as a blanket or towel or throw or dishcloth, I just don't "get" this copyright business at all.
Donna, with intentions always bigger than her available time. (OkieDokieKnitter on Ravelry) |
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flicka
Seriously Hooked
828 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 09:50:53 AM
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I am equally mystified by copyrights, but it seems a nice place to quote Kathleen Taylor, whose blog I read regularly:
"You (individuals, not companies or corporations) may knit as many items from the Freebie Friday patterns (or any other original free patterns posted here) as you like. You may sell those items and make a bazillion dollars doing so. I would rather you didn't repost the pattern pages, or print them in volume to hand out, but linking to here is fine. Crediting the design and designer would also be nice."
(From "Kathleen Taylor's Dakota Dreams" blog.)
flicka
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1428 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 12:28:52 PM
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It's not the hand towel that's copyrighted (or the blanket or the dishcloth) - those are all "useful articles" and NOT copyrighteable (check the text of the law on the government web site) - it's the PATTERN. I. e. The wording of the instructions, the layout on the page, the pictures/charts if there are any. That's a "literary work" and just as much protected by copyright as the worst trash novel or a perfectly stupid article in a newspaper.
Whether the motif in the pattern is a "work of art" on its own and thus protected by copyright is a question lawyers could make a fortune arguing over, I suppose.
Bye, Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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lella
Permanent Resident
9701 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 1:43:15 PM
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I agree with Klara, and furthermore, it's a little heady to take a pattern motif from another pattern, such as the baby blanket and then say all the usual things .. the Blah Blah Blah, could and may be a copyright violation in itself. Just make them from the baby pattern (which will still by under copyright, and if you make them to sell, have the other pattern handy to show any copyright police!
I love the designers who post something like Kathleen Taylor. You love them all the more for it.
Lella
Zippiknits
"Life is good if you don't weaken." Calvin Coolidge
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GeishaGirl
New Pal
47 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 7:08:50 PM
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| I saw someone try to copywrite a stockinette hat with a ribbed brim. Seriously. "You MAY NOT produce anything from this pattern for sale, etc, etc." |
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ikkivan
Gabber Extraordinaire
USA
433 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 7:47:18 PM
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I suppose I know this stuff, but really, it's that business of "incorporating a motif into other works" that really blows my mind. I think the motif has been around for a long, long time.
Oh well. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Guess I'll just do my best to abide by the designer's request, even if I don't understand it.
Donna, with intentions always bigger than her available time. (OkieDokieKnitter on Ravelry) |
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mertle
Permanent Resident
USA
1726 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 01:24:33 AM
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I've never understood the restriction of not selling items made from a pattern. So, to be safe, I designed every purse, scarf, or hat I sold. But if I ever get around to writing patterns, I will let it be known that the knitters may certainly sell items made from them. Why not?
One year I got particularly creative with hats. I came up with several different designs using swirls, zig-zags, etc. - all designed on the fly. Later, while cruising the web, I found several of "my" designs already made and published. It was a large lesson for me regarding no idea being really original. I like to think that some of the techniques I used on my purse bottoms were unique, but I bet I've only "unvented" them, as EZ would say. I come up with some nice chickens, but can't take credit for laying the eggs.
Marilyn
My Bags |
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lella
Permanent Resident
9701 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 11:18:46 AM
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Lol Mertle. It's a minefield, that copyright stuff.
I always used my own designs when making jewelry, but realized that there are just so many ways of making something work in any media! And, if the customers wanted to re-use designs, at least they had to buy them first. The pieces were usually too intricate to just "see" how it was done.
Lella
Zippiknits
"Life is good if you don't weaken." Calvin Coolidge
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mkfromKansas
Chatty Knitter
339 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 07:08:04 AM
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As a formerly published writer, I understand copyrights
BUT I have yet to meet any member of the yarn copyright police. If I had made a garment that someone wanted to pay me for, I'd take the money in a heartbeat. I'd be curious to see how much punishment the court would deem appropriate, besides, I could use the money. |
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1428 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 10:13:07 AM
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I somehow have a feeling that there has never been a court case - at least in my years on this Forum nobody has ever mentioned any. The most exciting copyright issue was probably Alice Starmore way back when (details here: http://www.girlfromauntie.com/journal/category/themes/chronicles/page/2/ ) she sent a cease-and-desist letter to a yarn shop who wanted to post pictures of Starmore sweaters knitted by her customers on their web site. However, the GirlFromAuntie does not mention the issue going to court. And anybody can write a cease-and-desist letter to anybody about anything - in the U.S. it doesn't seem to mean anything at all without a court decision (unlike in Germany, where both possible reactions to an "Abmahnung" - complying or going to court - cost money). Tabberone (http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml) didn't mention a knitting case either when I last looked on her web site.
Bye, Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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KathyR
Permanent Resident
New Zealand
2969 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 3:03:41 PM
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I recently read on Ravelry (sorry, I don't have a link as I can't remember where I read it) that American copyright law allows you to sell items knitted from patterns but not the patterns themselves. The exception is if the pattern includes artwork of some kind. This always remains the property of the artist (or copyright holder) and you may not sell items reproducing it. I don't think, however, that the person on Ravelry stated where their information came from apart from quoting a letter from a lawyer. It did seem interesting, though.
KathyR
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.
My Blog
http://www.flickr.com/groups/kr_members/ (Roselea Fibres) |
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weavingway
New Pal
43 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 09:13:47 AM
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| I have also read (not sure where) that it is in selling the pattern that the copyright comes into question. To my way of thinking a knitted item is like potatoe salad, all the same ingredients may be used but the end result is different by every person who makes it. Using different needle sizes, a different joining, even something as simple as tension will change from person to person. |
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lsparkman
New Pal
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:47:50 AM
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Copywrite with regard to patterns and products produced from them is all about money. Well almost all, anyway. Unless you are making enough money to get the attention of some entity who has the resources to procecute, the most I'd say you'll get is a nice communicae asking you to either give them credit for the pattern/item, or stop using it.
Artists were not protected at all until a relatevely short time ago, and now, they're protected too much. I mean, read the other posts and you'll see. If some attorney convinces a judge your circle shape is infriging on their client's design, you'll have to pay. Really. But, in real life, it doesn't really happen, and if you do have to pay, it's a small portion. Like a slap on the wrist. Generally an estimate of how much you profeted from the copied material.
This does not follow for large infringements done intentionally, like some po-dunk company bottling Coke in Y-bangi and distributing it. This type of infringement will eventually be halted, and the offenders will be procecuted severely. This is the stuff we read about.
Having said all that, please be concienscious with your use of other's designs. The best advice I've heard on this is to do what you would like others to do with designs you came up with.
lsparkman |
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churchlady
Warming Up
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 11:16:43 AM
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| The point about it not being in anyone's interest to litigate about a craft pattern is a good point; but you wouldn't want people to make your work worthless by giving away your work free at their store either, so, don't worry about the gray area stuff, we all know what's really not OK. Incidentally, on Ravelry, someone mentioned that when your gift made from a copyright pattern you promised never to sell gets to your sister-in-law, it may go right to a consignment store. Once clothing is made, no designer's claim on it exists. (Or so the Ravelry thread goes) One thing I learned researching music copyright: copyright law is really, really tricky. No one is going to sue my congregation, even though we have a little insurance, and some real estate. It's just not worth the hassle. But unless we use only the Hymnal, and pre-1800's music, the possiblecomplications are endless. Everybody just does their best and "Don't worry, be happy". Oh, no!! Is that covered under fair use? |
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kare
New Pal
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 2:06:01 PM
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| Last year,I knitted a baby blanket that I designed myself for our first great grandson - or so I thought it was my design. I've recently seen almost the exact pattern now on a well known yarn website - and they are selling that pattern. I don't want to buy the pattern to see if it is exactly my design, but it sure looks very close to it. So - even though I thought this was my very own design...how can anyone ever be certain that there isn't another "copyrighted" design out there? |
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1428 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 02:30:15 AM
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You can't - all you can do is not pretend that you invented it when in reality you copied it (that would be intellectually dishonest and do your reputation no good at all if it came out). Or, as a jeweller once said: "You design something and later you see in a museum that the Etruscans made almost exactly the same thing. And then you wonder: Have you seen a picture sometime in your life and forgotten about it, or are you really that good?"
As said before, in the U.S. there is NO copyright for clothing or other useful articles (such as baby blankets). Meaning there is absolutely no problem with you knitting and selling hundreds of hats or baby blankets (except for finding the buyers!). I was pretty surprised to see a scarf and a cowl that are extremely close to those I knit in recent Spin-Offs (which I had definitely not seen before knitting, and I don't think the scarf - which was sold - ended up with the person who wrote the article, even though it's not impossible. Much more likely is that we simply both looked at the pattern ("flame ribbing" in the 4th Walker Treasury) and thought "this is the perfect pattern for a scarf!" The cowl is 8 repeats of classing feather and fan knit in the round - not much "designing" involved either...)
What you must not do without the author's permission, is copy a pattern and selling this copy. Or take a pattern of the internet and giving it away to promote your yarn sales. In the U.S. the PATTERN is protected, the knitting isn't...
(Now, just to make things even more complicated: In France there IS copyright for clothing and accessories. There's a designer of It-bags who makes quite a bit of money from sueing competitors who copy his designs. You'd probably better not wear a hand-knitted rip-off Chanel jacket when walking through French customs...)
Bye, Klara
PS: Isn't it amazing how attitudes have changed since the subject was last discussed at length a few years ago? Or is it just that the knitters who shouted the loudest then are no longer active here in the forums?
http://www.lahottee.info |
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babsbnz@aol.com
New Pal
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 08:24:39 AM
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I do understand why you are not supposed to make copies of patterns that are available for sale...but what I don't understand is why doesn't that apply to recipes from a cookbook (or maybe it does?).
And if you own a pattern, can you "loan" it to someone else to use? If not, then how come you CAN loan someone a book you have purchased?
Or how come used book stores can re-sell a knitting magazine, or book? THEY get the $$, not the person who originally wrote the pattern? |
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Kade1301
Permanent Resident
France
1428 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2011 : 02:32:36 AM
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I'm pretty sure that you are not to make copies of cooking recipes either - the cookbook as a "literary work" (ingredients + instructional text + photos + layout, typeset etc.) is just as protected as any other book. What you can possibly do is re-write the recipe in your own words and distribute it - though I'd ask a knowledgeable lawyer about it if I considered making money from cookbook-rip-offs...
As far as loaning or selling my books/patterns/magazines is concerned: They are my property and I do with them whatever I want! And incidentatlly, that may turn out to the author's advantage: I've just loaned the second WSD magazine to spinning friends and now they are considering joining the association - which they'd never known about if I had not loaned them the magazines.
Bye, Klara
http://www.lahottee.info |
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Koinonia
New Pal
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 05:33:16 AM
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Copyrights are so confusing...but as they say, There's nothing new under the sun".
I went back to school for a Graphic Designer Certificate and of course the issues of copyright laws were introduced. I believe the teacher was also confused on the issues as many of the students confronted him with "circumstances" of coming up with this idea or that idea without seeing it in print. If the "idea" was register and confirmed, it is forbidden...and that includes using the idea in any project, whether a blanket or hand towel pattern even the re-arrangement of one item...it's still the original designers idea.
The school went to extremes on this issue. Perhaps rightly so...as they did not want anyone to get into trouble. For example: One class had a contest to do a mural on the hallway of the Graphic Dept. My group selected my idea to present. It was selected by the dean of graphics. All helped paint it on the wall...including me. When the time came for compiling a Portfolio, I wanted to use the mural and take a photo of it...I was forbidden as others worked on it and he claimed it would be infringing upon their rights. I thought that was taking the copyright issue too far, especially when it was my design, it was not registered and I helped in painting the mural as well. OKay, so I left it alone.
In conclusion, I believe if it is in print and registered it is forbidden to claim it as your own idea. The individual that has the original design can pursue the issue and win...and I mean win big!
I maybe off the mark on this confusing subject and many have better understanding than I do on copyrights...so take my "Opinion" with a grain of salt.
There! now I have two posts added. :) |
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robinstephanie
Seriously Hooked
USA
903 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 06:14:31 AM
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Hi Koinonia--How odd that they would not let you use your own work, even if it was a work completed in concert with others. Did they ever discuss credit lines with you? I don't know if you use them in graphic arts, but I'm in publishing, and we use them all the time. We solicit permission from the person who owns the rights to the work and place a credit line in the book, something like, "Copyright XYZ 2010. Used with permission." In creating a piece of art, artists frequently borrow or cooperate. Copyright law has to have some kind of flexibility to account for this, and the credit line is one method I know of, though I'm not sure how that would apply to knitting, patterns, etc.
Robinsteph
Different is good. ~Matthew Hoover |
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Koinonia
New Pal
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 10:14:57 AM
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Hello, Robin
I did sign the work and others signed it as well. Maybe thats where the rub was taken.
Guess if I wanted to be "pill" about it I could have taken my design layout to place in the Portfolio...but then again, I wanted to pass! |
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puzzled about copyrights
