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 Increased security at British airports
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v-allknit
Seriously Hooked

India
741 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  07:27:54 AM  Show Profile Send v-allknit a Private Message
here in India too the security is on high alert, as our Independence Day is on 15th and then on 16th its Janmastmi, Lord Krishna's birthday and there are lots of public gatherings.
i cant understand how can any one prove anything by killing people or terrorising them, its like school, where there used to be a bully who would dominate around and that person was the one who had most of the complexes about himself. in the end he was the one who would be alone and no one would like to be associated with him !!!!
all this killing and hate is so negative. why cant everyone be happy in their own homes and let the neibhours be happy in their's.


shruti

My finished projects http://photos.yahoo.com/dr_shruti2000)
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gwtreece
Permanent Resident

USA
7254 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  07:48:19 AM  Show Profile  Send gwtreece a Yahoo! Message Send gwtreece a Private Message
Shruti, I agree but unfortunately all this terrorist stuff isn't going away. I wish it would but it I'm happy that the government is attempting to make the airlines safe.

Wanda
My Blog
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Knitasha
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  07:57:52 AM  Show Profile Send Knitasha a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bethany
As the article pointed out, the ability to stage an attack in this fashion has been around for decades, yet how many such attacks have actually happened?


It's the risk-consequence factor that's at work here.
The risk of sky-diving and having your parachute not open is small,
but if it does happen, the consequences are major.
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kdcrowley
Permanent Resident

USA
4773 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  08:42:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit kdcrowley's Homepage Send kdcrowley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Atavistic

I was listening to the radio and they said something about how playground in England were now "too safe" so kids were playing around train tracks and rivers because it was "more fun."

The thing that struck me was the quote for the RSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents). They said that playground needed to be made "as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible."

When is the line from necessity crossed to insanity?

Lip balm?

Oh and believe me, after flying 3 international flights with only a carry-on bag, I get checked CONSTANTLY. I'm taking off my shoes, getting "random" checks at every point, having my ticket highlighted all over the place, and given pat downs. Now I've flown on a one-way ticket to Asia. I'll be going to Thailand in 10 days and I intend to go to China before I leave here. I plan on getting my pilot's license (hopefully within 5 years). I'm sure I'll be detained in an airport room at some point because of all of that.

Bring on the "random" checks.

My government will not prevent me from seeing more than my country, no matter how many red alerts, travel warnings, and over-the-top-lip-balm-and-water-forbidden policies they put into place. My government can scare others into staying home, but they can't scare me. If you really believe terrorists are a huge threat, you let them win by staying home--that's exactly what they want! A scared populace! Well I'm sure as heck going to live my life, no matter if the terror level is green, yellow, orange or red!

Amanda Takes Off... and
Amanda Knits

Only you can decide how tongue in cheek I am.



Amanda, I don't scare easily, but will not be flying anytime soon, until this latest hysteria is over....and that is what it is....HYSTERIA.

I am just betting that if I let them know that I had a ring of bubblegum terrrorists planning to hijack a couple of planes, that they would ban all gum and gum constituents....Cause we all know how dangerous bubblegum is.....




Mistress Kelley of the Hellacious Sockknitting

Going to He** for buying sock yarn during Lent, but at least my feet won't be cold.


http://ceallachknits.blogspot.com
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Atavistic
Permanent Resident

6604 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  08:56:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Atavistic's Homepage Send Atavistic a Private Message
Well I'm flying to Thailand in one week (it's Tuesday here) and I'm going! I'll see if I can get bubblegum on...

Amanda Takes Off... and
Amanda Knits

Only you can decide how tongue in cheek I am.
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NaProus
Permanent Resident

1828 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  09:27:57 AM  Show Profile Send NaProus a Private Message
quote:
A more viable threat would be a binary explosive. This is an explosive, manufactured industrially, that comes in two parts; a fuel and an oxidizer. This is done for storage and transportation prerequisites. A binary explosive is not an explosive until its mixed and not detectable as an explosive prior to mixing.


This is exactly what I have understood the British plot to have been planning on using -- and thus, what the regulations prohibiting liquids are aiming at. Perhaps some elements of the media (and certainly many people in the general public) have gotten the wrong end of the stick by refering to "liquid explosives," but the risk of a particular liquid being smuggled on to a plane (while disguised as a bottle of Gatorade or whatever) is no less.

For the purposes of the bombers, it wouldn't matter, moreover, if the explosive were "inherently instable." They don't care -- they want it to blow up, and since it's a suicide mission, what do they care if it happens right away? An explosion is an explosion!

What's a leper bandage? http://www.bevscountrycottage.com/bandages.html
http://www.ghm.org/resources/hands-on/knittedbandage.html
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Bethany
Permanent Resident

USA
1546 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  10:24:10 AM  Show Profile Send Bethany a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by NaProus
For the purposes of the bombers, it wouldn't matter, moreover, if the explosive were "inherently instable." They don't care -- they want it to blow up, and since it's a suicide mission, what do they care if it happens right away? An explosion is an explosion!


Depends on what they're trying to do. If all they want to do is kill themselves and the people in the seats around them, sure. However, if they actually want to bring down the jet, that's a different story. At least according to the talking head I saw on the news between popping in DVDs (I too have given up on the news), bringing down a modern jumbo jet with explosives is harder than it sounds: unless you have a really huge explosion, it has to go off in a vulnerable area. A modern jet is totally capable of coming in for a safe landing with a hole blown in the side. (Bad luck for the people sitting around the terrorist, obviously. Good incentive to call the flight attendant if your seatmate appears to be assembling a bomb.)

At least, according to the talking head. I can't verify the accuracy -- what do I know about jumbo jets? They did have a number of pictures of safely-landed jets with impressively-sized holes in the side, though (either because of bombs or mechanical failure).

quote:
Originally posted by Knitasha
It's the risk-consequence factor that's at work here.
The risk of sky-diving and having your parachute not open is small,
but if it does happen, the consequences are major.



Belive me, I understand about expected utility -- researching how people make decisions based on probabilty and utility is what I do for a living. But my point is that even when the negative utility (economist/psychologist speak for "badness") of an outcome is very large, if the probability of the outcome occuring is very small there's a limit to how much worry it's worth expending on it. For example, the negative utility of an asteroid the size of the one that killed the dinosaurs hitting the earth is very, VERY large, but the probability is small enough that I don't lose sleep over it.

These secuity screenings are not costless -- there's a large cost in inconvenience (especially for people with medical needs who may literally not be able to fly without liquids, like my former housemate who will have eye problems if she spends a long time in the dehydrating atmosphere of the plane without eyedrops), in time wasted in the airport, and of course the monetary cost of the discarded liquids and medications, and the screenings itself. If flying ever became too difficult for people to do easily, the impact on the US ecomony (both due to tourism and buisness travel) would be tremendous.

It's popular to say "if it saves just one life, isn't it worth it?" To which I say, "No. Not necessarily." The value of a human life is not infinite -- not even to the human life in question. I place great value on my life but if accepting a tiny increase in the risk of my death is the price I have to pay in exhange for making it continue to be economically feasable for me to go home for Christmas, see the world on my vacation, and visit friends in other parts of the country -- so be it.

Heck, at the moment it's probably more likely I'll die due to having an allergic reaction to a snack on the plane and not having been allowed to carry my Epipen on board. At least I've *had* allergic reactions to food on airplanes (though luckily not serious enough to require an Epipen).

If attacks become more frequent, for example to the point that air travel becomes as dangerous as driving, then it would be time to reconsider. And it's always worth thinking about improving security measures in reasonable and sustainable ways, of course.
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YarnGoddess
Permanent Resident

USA
2460 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  11:33:29 AM  Show Profile Send YarnGoddess a Private Message
Bethany, the report you saw was on ABC news, but I forget which night, maybe last night? I found it interesting.

Elizabeth
Zipper & Diva

A sense of humor can help you tolerate the unpleasant, cope with the unexpected, overlook the unattractive and smile through the unbearable.

To learn more about healthy nutrition for your cat, go here: http://www.catnutrition.org and here: http://www.catinfo.org/
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NaProus
Permanent Resident

1828 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  11:45:44 AM  Show Profile Send NaProus a Private Message
Interesting about a jet being able to land with a hole in its side. I wasn't aware of that. The BBC piece I referred to somewhere further up the thread seemed to imply that it wouldn't be *that* hard to bring down a plane (I think the line was something about "at a certain point, chemistry ceases to matter and physics takes over") -- but I am perhaps misinformed.

What's a leper bandage? http://www.bevscountrycottage.com/bandages.html
http://www.ghm.org/resources/hands-on/knittedbandage.html
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kdcrowley
Permanent Resident

USA
4773 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  12:38:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit kdcrowley's Homepage Send kdcrowley a Private Message
Bethany, bringing down a modern jet is not as difficult as they make out. I just saw a show about one of the big crashes...in Nova Scotia, and the upshot was that materials, like the metallized mylar, that were previously rated for airplane use in the insulation and ducting, are actually extremely dangerous and highly flammable.

But since replacing all the mylar and ducting in one fleet of airliners would be prohibitive, let alone every fleet of airliners, I am sure that it all got swept under the political rugs.

But I do like your statement about quality of life and freedom of movement. That is essential to modern society....

But hey it's okay if they want to ban books....we all know how dangerous books can be, right? Not to mention, water and peanuts.

I believe the epipen would be allowed, as long as you have a prescription....

Can you get a prescription for liquid rocket fuel, I wonder????

Mistress Kelley of the Hellacious Sockknitting

Going to He** for buying sock yarn during Lent, but at least my feet won't be cold.


http://ceallachknits.blogspot.com
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Bethany
Permanent Resident

USA
1546 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  1:26:20 PM  Show Profile Send Bethany a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by YarnGoddess

Bethany, the report you saw was on ABC news, but I forget which night, maybe last night? I found it interesting.



Yep, that's got to be it, since ABC and my VCR are on the same channel.

Dunno. I'm now tempted to Google, "How hard is it to crash a jet with explosives" to see different opinions but somehow I don't think our friend Big Brother would find that amusing.

I'm not sure about the Epipen. I could get a new prescription (I lost the one for my current pen a long time ago) but I thought the name was supposed to be on the bottle, and of course there's no name on an Epipen.

My next flight isn't until October, anyway, hopefully calmer heads will have prevailed by then. (Ha!)

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NaProus
Permanent Resident

1828 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  1:28:13 PM  Show Profile Send NaProus a Private Message
quote:

Dunno. I'm now tempted to Google, "How hard is it to crash a jet with explosives" to see different opinions but somehow I don't think our friend Big Brother would find that amusing.


I know the feeling! There have been many things I've been interested in recently that I've been reluctant to google...

What's a leper bandage? http://www.bevscountrycottage.com/bandages.html
http://www.ghm.org/resources/hands-on/knittedbandage.html
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YarnGoddess
Permanent Resident

USA
2460 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  1:50:57 PM  Show Profile Send YarnGoddess a Private Message
Get a new scrip for your epipen, just to be on the safe side. You can also (theoretically speaking) coordinate with the airlines ahead of time if you have dietary requirements or restrictions. My mom's diabetic, travelling to England with her in a couple months should prove quite interesting.

Elizabeth
Zipper & Diva

A sense of humor can help you tolerate the unpleasant, cope with the unexpected, overlook the unattractive and smile through the unbearable.

To learn more about healthy nutrition for your cat, go here: http://www.catnutrition.org and here: http://www.catinfo.org/
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tyffaneesue
Gabber Extraordinaire

572 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  4:19:55 PM  Show Profile Send tyffaneesue a Private Message
Ummm, if you want to take something with you on a plane--be it explosives or merely some medication for which you can't find the prescription--how hard would it be to use a prescription bottle that does have your name on it? The TSA screener isn't going to examine the contents and say "wait a sec...that's not ampicillin!"

How hard would it be, for that matter, to print up a realistic label and stick it on a bottle?

These new regs cause major inconvenience to the good folks who travel...but only delay the bad guys by about 10 minutes while they redo their packaging. Face it: if the ground intelligence isn't working, no amount of screening will prevent disasters.
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident

USA
3363 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  4:38:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit CatherineM's Homepage Send CatherineM a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tyffaneesue


These new regs cause major inconvenience to the good folks who travel...but only delay the bad guys by about 10 minutes while they redo their packaging. Face it: if the ground intelligence isn't working, no amount of screening will prevent disasters.



This guy hits on the things that make me crazy. http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2006/08/seize_my_gatora.html#more

While the Transportation Security Administration is dumping shampoo and contact lens cleaner in the rubbish bin, eliminating the possibility that somebody will set off a one- or two-pound bomb, everyone who flies commercially continues to take the risk that a bomb of 30 or 50 pounds could be riding in the cargo hold. Less than a month short of Nine-Eleven, only a small fraction of the 6 billion pounds of cargo that travels by passenger jet is inspected. And while improved TSA air cargo rules will come into full effect by December after years of foot-dragging, even then most of those 6 billion pounds will not be inspected.

But we can't buy a Starbucks mocha at the gate.

Catherine
http://www.yorkiedog.blogspot.com
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Bethany
Permanent Resident

USA
1546 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  4:41:35 PM  Show Profile Send Bethany a Private Message
I had that thought, too. They might notice if the contents of a pill bottle were crystals rather than pills, but presumably are not likely to be able to tell if the contents of a liquid prescription are not the stated liquid. It's not like terrorists don't go to the doctors'.

I've always had the same thought about the multiple checkings-of-ID that go on when you fly. Not that I don't think checking the ID is reasonable but it's not clear to me what it's supposed to do to stop terrorism. Terrorists presumably have photo IDs just like the rest of us, and it's not like they have "terrorist" stamped on the ID so you can tell by looking at the ID that they're a terrorist.

Edit: Catherine: Eeep. I knew security on all-cargo planes blew, but didn't know that the secuity on passenger jets was that bad.

Presumably the reason for the double standard is twofold. One, secuity is more about giving people warm fuzzy feeling of saftey than ACTUALLY keeping people safe, and screening passengers is more effective for the former. Two, increased cargo security would hurt business (and the government is against hurting business) but screening passengers only impacts civil liberties (and the government is against civil liberties).

Add in the fact that all things considred, a few terrorist attacks would likely be benefical to the government and specifically the GOP and it's probably not surprising nothing is being done.

Me, cynical? Nah.
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kdcrowley
Permanent Resident

USA
4773 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  6:15:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit kdcrowley's Homepage Send kdcrowley a Private Message
Bethany, tell us what you really feel, honey, so that we can AGREE with you!

I think that we need to unite into the Cynical Cabal, and rise up against the idiots running airline security. That'll show them. Maybe we can be the bubblegum terrorists.....

Mistress Kelley of the Hellacious Sockknitting

Going to He** for buying sock yarn during Lent, but at least my feet won't be cold.


http://ceallachknits.blogspot.com
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Tangled Jane
Seriously Hooked

Canada
750 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2006 :  12:42:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Tangled Jane's Homepage Send Tangled Jane a Private Message
Have you heard that no books or magazines are permitted, either? And, KD, was that flight in Nova Scotia you were referring to Swiss Air? I heard that one go down. It's a sound I'll never forget.

But, I digress. What about the ongoing discussion of profiling, or, as some commentors have stated as yet 'another excuse for racism'.
On the other hand, in Israel, security teams are so well trained, they can read facial expression, trap a nervous terroist with a few choice questions and yet remain unfailingly polite and calm. Perhaps what we need is better training.

I just went through Heathrow two weeks ago. On the surface at least, security seemed relaxed if not lax -- lots of laughing and joking around. on the other hand, Italy, which often wears the label of a laid-back Mediterranean country, grilled my husband (grilio) until his fingernails curled because he attempted to bring a large brinze wall plaque home in his carryon.

http://www.janethornley.com/journal_knitters.php
Jane
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kdcrowley
Permanent Resident

USA
4773 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2006 :  1:40:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit kdcrowley's Homepage Send kdcrowley a Private Message
Yes, Jane I think it was SwissAir....they found that the high standards for non-flammability for the materials that the plane was built with were 30 years out of date, and now that they know more about crashes and impose new tests that the materials fail with flying colors....


Mistress Kelley of the Hellacious Sockknitting

Going to He** for buying sock yarn during Lent, but at least my feet won't be cold.


http://ceallachknits.blogspot.com
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CatherineM
Permanent Resident

USA
3363 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2006 :  4:20:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit CatherineM's Homepage Send CatherineM a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Tangled Jane


But, I digress. What about the ongoing discussion of profiling, or, as some commentors have stated as yet 'another excuse for racism'.
On the other hand, in Israel, security teams are so well trained, they can read facial expression, trap a nervous terroist with a few choice questions and yet remain unfailingly polite and calm. Perhaps what we need is better training.



Or a revival of the training from ten years ago. I know the US has used profiling long before 911, because I watched it in action. Back in the mid-90s, I'm guessing 1995, I had the pleasure of traveling with a twitchy, tense-looking dark haired, dark eyed male attorney. (One of our co-workers pointed out that he was a ringer for Mr. Bean.) If Mr. Bean and I went through security together and the security people saw that we were together, he had no problem and was never stopped or questioned. If we were separated because he went to the restroom or to buy a magazine before boarding he was stopped every time and questioned every time. One time he almost didn't get on the plane because they kept asking him questions - I had already boarded and wondered where he was, when he slid into his seat sweating and twitchy. Single male, nervous, traveling on a one-way ticket, alone. Yes, they were profiling in 1995, and he did look shifty, and they did stop him. If they aren't doing that now, why not?

Catherine
http://www.yorkiedog.blogspot.com
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