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 Why not knit in the round?
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laparente@yahoo.com
Chatty Knitter

246 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  4:39:10 PM  Show Profile Send laparente@yahoo.com a Private Message
This is a general question, but I can give a specific example.

I just bought Berroco Pattern 244, "Joyce" which is a short sleeve sweater. The directions call for you to knit the front and back flat to the armholes, then knit the sleeves (again, flat) then join those four pieces in the round to knit the yoke. Finally, you have to sew up the seams under the arms and down the sides.

Why?

Why can't I just knit the body as a tube, then knit the arms as a tube, then join and knit the yoke in the round? Like Elizabeth Z taught us? No seams. Done.

Ok, so, yeah, I can alter the pattern, and do it in the round, but my question is WHY? Why are patterns always written flat, even when, as in this example, they kinda make more sense in the round? After all, this is not a set-in sleeve, where the tailoring requires flat construction.

And frankly, I am afraid to alter the pattern, because I don't always have the best luck with things turning out right, and I think, gee, maybe that's because I'm always screwing with the pattern and substituting yarn.

Why? Why are 98% of patterns written flat?

fmarrs
Guardian angel

USA
9776 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  5:19:31 PM  Show Profile Send fmarrs a Private Message
How a pattern is designed depends entirely on the person doing it. Perhaps the person who designed your top hates working in the round. However, like you suggested, it is a simple matter to change a pattern from flat knitting to knitting in the round. I made a sweater with flat knitting about 8 years ago, just to see if I remembered how to do it. I change every pattern to round knitting.

fran

http://martianmischief.blogspot.com/
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yarnyamy
Gabber Extraordinaire

562 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2006 :  5:24:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit yarnyamy's Homepage Send yarnyamy a Private Message
Not entirely true- sometimes (as EZ herself learned) the powers that be want designs to be flat- it's not always the designer's choice.

http://frottez.blogspot.com
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Medea
Chatty Knitter

334 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  07:23:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Medea's Homepage Send Medea a Private Message
I wondered this, too, when looking at people's photos of knitting a shell called Orangina, a pattern I'd like to try that is apparently written for flat knitting. I'm working on my first sweater, which is top-down in the round and I now I want to do every sweater that way. :) But I'm like you and not completely confident I will alter the pattern correctly if I try to make Orangina in the round instead of flat.

Jenny

I'm teaching myself to knit -- dare I call myself an "advanced beginner" now? Pictures are at http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsphotos
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Atavistic
Permanent Resident

6604 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  07:24:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit Atavistic's Homepage Send Atavistic a Private Message
Sometimes things are written flat because the yarn biasing in the round.

Amanda Takes Off... and
Amanda Knits

Only you can decide how tongue in cheek I am.
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KnittingBetty
New Pal

14 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  07:51:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit KnittingBetty's Homepage Send KnittingBetty a Private Message
I don't have a lot of time to knit, so I like the little milestones of finishing the front, the back, 1 sleeve, etc. Seaming does not bother me.

I am currently knitting Orangina. I thought about converting it to in the round. But I didn't. I finished the front. I feel like I accomplished something.
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achrisvet
Permanent Resident

USA
5986 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  08:43:08 AM  Show Profile Send achrisvet a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by yarnyamy

Not entirely true- sometimes (as EZ herself learned) the powers that be want designs to be flat- it's not always the designer's choice.

http://frottez.blogspot.com



Yes! I was just reading somewhere that when she submitted some of her first patterns to magazines for publication the editors converted them all to flat knitting! How outrageous!

Anita
My completed projects

and here

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blwinteler
Permanent Resident

USA
3145 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  12:35:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit blwinteler's Homepage  Send blwinteler a Yahoo! Message Send blwinteler a Private Message
I started Calla, from knitty, a while back. I converted it to the round and I like how it is working out (when I am working on it. Too many projects at once). It is easy to convert patterns to the round. On Calla, I just omitted the edge stitches and put markers at the sides so I could remember where I was in the pattern. I will finish it eventually.

Take care!
Brandy

My finished projects

[img]http://members.cox.net/blwinteler/th_TeamVegas2.jpg[/img]
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grouchywif
Chatty Knitter

243 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  2:59:28 PM  Show Profile Send grouchywif a Private Message
I've heard and read that seaming can make things more structured and fit better, but I don't know if that is true. I do know that some yarns and some patterns will make the garment twist around on you while wearing the garment if knitted in the round. You know how sometimes you buy pants and one of the legs was cut wrong (on the bias) so after you wash it, it twists around on you cockeyed for forever after?

http://haveyarnwilltravel.blogspot.com/
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fmarrs
Guardian angel

USA
9776 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2006 :  4:06:06 PM  Show Profile Send fmarrs a Private Message
quote:
Yes! I was just reading somewhere that when she submitted some of her first patterns to magazines for publication the editors converted them all to flat knitting! How outrageous!


The most important thing about what happened to EZ is the year in which it happened and the time frame of knitting at that time. Quotations without a time frame are not as meaningful. This happened many years ago when circular knitting was a little known technique and circular needles were few and far between. I received my first circular needle as a gift from my LYS because: "This is a weird idea that will never survive. Take it, its free." I still have it. It has stainless steel needles and a stainless cable between them. Don't even think about magic loop......LOL

fran

http://martianmischief.blogspot.com/
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ceecee
Permanent Resident

1896 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  05:29:11 AM  Show Profile Send ceecee a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Atavistic

Sometimes things are written flat because the yarn biasing in the round.



Which yarns are more likely to bias? Does it have to do with the twist? I've knitted a number of garments in the round and not had any biasing - yet - but I'd like to stay clear of yarns that do because I often convert patterns to knit in the round.
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Atavistic
Permanent Resident

6604 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  05:35:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Atavistic's Homepage Send Atavistic a Private Message
Well, swatch swatch swatch.

For me cottons tend to bias more than other yarns.

Amanda Takes Off... and
Amanda Knits

Only you can decide how tongue in cheek I am.
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gwtreece
Permanent Resident

USA
7254 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  05:47:54 AM  Show Profile  Send gwtreece a Yahoo! Message Send gwtreece a Private Message
Some people don't like knitting in the round.

Wanda
My Blog
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Paneenjerez
Warming Up

USA
80 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  05:55:39 AM  Show Profile Send Paneenjerez a Private Message
How do you convert a flat sweater pattern to one knitted in the round? I've googled but can't find any instructions.
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fmarrs
Guardian angel

USA
9776 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  06:10:30 AM  Show Profile Send fmarrs a Private Message
There is only one major change when converting a pattern to knitting in the round. When you knit back and forth, you work one row on the front or public side of the knitting and then the next row on the back or private side of the knitting. In stockinette stitch this is knit one row, purl one row. When knitting in the round, you are always working from the front or public side of the knitting and stockinette stitch is knit every row. I remember this change as converting every other row on a pattern by switching the knits to purls and the purls to knits. You get used to that mindset very quickly.

Cast on both the front and the back and join into a circle. Knit up to the underarm bind offs, then work the front and back separately up to the shoulders. The sleeves can be worked in the usual way or stitches picked up around the armholes and worked down. There are excelllent books for knitting from the top down but not so many for knitting from the bottom up. An excellent book for learning techniques is "The Sweater Workshop" by Fee.

fran

http://martianmischief.blogspot.com/
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HomekeepingGran
Seriously Hooked

614 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  06:50:26 AM  Show Profile Send HomekeepingGran a Private Message
Could the prejudice against knitting in the round be a crossover from the garment industry?

Blessings,
Carla

She seeketh wool and flax and worketh willingly with her hands... Proverbs 31:13
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PamelaA3
Gabber Extraordinaire

USA
476 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  07:46:38 AM  Show Profile Send PamelaA3 a Private Message
I think biasing is the worst problem with cottons. The way yarn is plied can also affect biasing. Yarns that are plied with a Z twist create biasing. Put these two together and you have a major problem. As already said, make a large swatch.

See http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall05/FEATwhyply.html

A lot of stitch patterns don't work in round knitting. Intarsia is one that is not usually done, I am not sure if it can be done. I imagine, but am not sure, that lace patterns that have stitch transfers on every row would not work. Perhaps a seasoned lace knitter will comment on this. I am sure there are others.

I think the stablity of side seams is a good reason to not work a garment in the round unless it is for a baby or toddler. The seam would not have enough length to twist very far. Just my opinion.

Happy Knitting,

Pam
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xmasberry
Seriously Hooked

826 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  09:14:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit xmasberry's Homepage Send xmasberry a Private Message
I thought that one reason patterns were written for flat knitting was so that they could be proofed using a knitting machine. Anyone happen to know if this is true?

holly x
"do what you love, love what you do, leave the world a better place and don't pick your nose" -Jef Mallett
little miss messy hair's blog
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Momma78239
Permanent Resident

USA
4859 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  09:55:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit Momma78239's Homepage  Send Momma78239 a Yahoo! Message Send Momma78239 a Private Message
Intarsia can be done in the round, but not easily. It involves a sort of "seam as you go" technique that involves pulling a loop through at the turning point, and is very hard to describe.

-WendyM[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/Momma78239/smallspindlepic.gif[/IMG]
And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen. Exodus 35:25
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HomekeepingGran
Seriously Hooked

614 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  09:57:46 AM  Show Profile Send HomekeepingGran a Private Message
Pam, thanks for the great article link. I've added it to my favorites!

Blessings,
Carla

She seeketh wool and flax and worketh willingly with her hands... Proverbs 31:13
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Momma78239
Permanent Resident

USA
4859 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2006 :  10:02:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Momma78239's Homepage  Send Momma78239 a Yahoo! Message Send Momma78239 a Private Message
The stability of side seams is also a reason TO knit something in the round. Ever see the side seams pulled up, while the rest of the garment tries to drape? Looks horrid!

Always do a swatch in the round if you want to get rid of the seams. If it doesn't bias too much, then go for it!

-WendyM[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/Momma78239/smallspindlepic.gif[/IMG]
And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen. Exodus 35:25
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