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knitlethab
Seriously Hooked

Canada
604 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2004 :  8:14:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit knitlethab's Homepage Send knitlethab a Private Message
We all have friends and acquintances who want to copy oue patterns...what do you do? Do you say it's okay or not?

celia
Permanent Resident

Australia
2454 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2004 :  8:21:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit celia's Homepage Send celia a Private Message
What are oue patterns? Did you mean your patterns? If they are your patterns then the choice is yours. Just remember that if they are a source of income to you, then perhaps you should consider the financial consequences of allowing your patterns to be copied.

celia


View my completed items here
http://img65.photobucket.com/albums/v197/celiang/
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knitlethab
Seriously Hooked

Canada
604 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2004 :  10:32:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit knitlethab's Homepage Send knitlethab a Private Message
No,I mean they want to copy patterns from general books. Books that I own but did not publish.
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celia
Permanent Resident

Australia
2454 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2004 :  10:52:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit celia's Homepage Send celia a Private Message
In that case, I would say no, ask them to go buy the books. It's not fair to the designers and it's not fair to the purchaser of the book (even if you don't really mind). That's how designers get paid. I am not one myself (yet??) but I know I'll be very sore, if i were, and found out people were copying my patterns for free.

celia


View my completed items here
http://img65.photobucket.com/albums/v197/celiang/
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GFTC
Permanent Resident

USA
6331 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  03:59:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit GFTC's Homepage Send GFTC a Private Message
What if you loan the book to the person and they return it after making the item? Is that permissable? I know many people on KR borrow knitting books from libraries and my guess is they are knitting from them, not just reading them since they are pattern books.
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sarahsthreads
Chatty Knitter

USA
178 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  04:00:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit sarahsthreads's Homepage Send sarahsthreads a Private Message
Could you let them borrow the book? I've done that on occasion. I figure letting a friend borrow a book to make something out of it is no different from them checking the book out of the library. (It's just my own private library, and I don't charge late fees!) Of course, all of this depends on me not needing the book for however many months it might take them to finish whatever they're making.

Sarah :)

http://sarahsthreads.com/journal/
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celia
Permanent Resident

Australia
2454 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  04:03:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit celia's Homepage Send celia a Private Message
In my opinon (that's all it is - my opinion, not the law ) - I think it is ok to lend them the book. That will be like getting the book from the library. But it will not be ok to copy the patterns for them. I think the idea of 'fair use' is that one copy of the pattern can only be in use at one time. This means no copying, unless it is for writing on, or something similar.

celia

View my completed items here
http://img65.photobucket.com/albums/v197/celiang/
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achrisvet
Permanent Resident

USA
5986 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  11:33:10 AM  Show Profile Send achrisvet a Private Message
What about copying a pattern from a library book? YOu can only keep the book 2 weeks and it may take months to finish the project. Plus, who wants to lug a book around, especially one that is not yours.

I always copy a pattern for my own use because I'm afraid of losing it. I lost a baby bootie pattern and had to buy it again. I was not happy. So I keep the original in a file and work from the copy. But this is not copying to give to someone else.

Anita

See my completed projects!
http://www.picturetrail.com/achrisvet
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knottyknitter
Permanent Resident

USA
3702 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  12:21:54 PM  Show Profile Send knottyknitter a Private Message
I'm not a librarian - maybe someone here is though. However, I believe that a certain amount of copying from library books is acceptable and that libraries actually pay more for their books to take this into account (higher royalties, licensing fees - whatever). Am I correct? I don't remember where I heard this, but I have an amazing ability to retain this sort of trivia.
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klfrazier
Permanent Resident

1745 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  12:25:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit klfrazier's Homepage Send klfrazier a Private Message
I think you are right - once a library purchases a book they also purchase the rights for public use. That includes copying from the book for whatever reason. If it were not allowed, there would be no copy machines in libraries.

Regarding the "privately owned library," I am very careful with my own. I will not agree to friends borrowing and copying if I get the sense that they are using me (too cheap/lazy to get their own patterns), but I will loan my knitting books out from time to time. If you don't want to risk loosing the book to your friend, suggest politely they buy their own copy.

I've found that most fellow knitters completely understand the rights of the designers and choose to support them by purchasing their own patterns anyway.

Kristin
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GFTC
Permanent Resident

USA
6331 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  12:49:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit GFTC's Homepage Send GFTC a Private Message
I am completely confused. Does this mean that it is OK to copy a pattern from a library book but not from your neighbor's copy of the same book? When you say that libraries pay more for the book does this take into account that some libraries are in towns of 5000 and others in cities of 8 million? What if your neighbor has the book but will never use that specific pattern, is it OK for you to copy it because that pattern would be used by one person although another person paid for the book and would use other patterns in it? What if you have a weekly knitalong and one pattern is on the table for 4 people to knit but nobody can make herself an individual copy? Is that permissable?

Forgive me, I'm just being a pain in the ass but one could come up with a lot of scenarios. I'm glad I don't know any knitters who would ask me to copy patterns.

I once ordered yarn from LYS to make a specific pattern. When the yarn came in she no longer had the book, just a "store copy." She got nervous that I wasn't going to take the yarn and offered to copy the pattern from the store book. I said no thanks, I would find the book elsewhere (I wanted to own the book, this is not a story of my morals). I bought the yarn and went elsewhere and bought the book. When I got home and took the yarn out of the bag, the copy of the pattern was in the bag. When I am in that store I notice now that there are a lot of "store copies" so I assume this is her practice, although I can't say for sure since it is not a store that I buy much from.
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The Search Fairy
New Pal

40 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  1:56:18 PM  Show Profile Send The Search Fairy a Private Message
Thanks to The Search Fairy's sidekick, Beauty Bee, for pointing out these two copyright threads!

I am posting the same links to both since often both questions are overlapping in threads. The first two links are the longest ones, with three pages each.

http://knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=6708
http://knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=10025
http://knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=10762
http://knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=6150
http://knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1069
http://knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=3419

The Search Fairy
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klfrazier
Permanent Resident

1745 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  2:16:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit klfrazier's Homepage Send klfrazier a Private Message
To the question of libraries - I don't think that their costs have anything to do with the size of city/town they are in. Obviously, the larger the town the better funded the library normally is and so the more books it can own. However, I believe copying is allowed because libraries are publicly owned institutions and as such, the materials contained within are technically the property of the public at large. You would have to check with someone in library science for a better legal explanation. It's been my experience, though, that the libraries I use encourage people to make copies of most materials for personal use - especially when the materials are needed for extended time periods.

Having said that, every time I have found something in my library that I want in a knitting book I eventually buy the book anyway.

My guild has an extensive library. Guild members are free to check out and use the materials as they see fit. As the books are property of my guild, and as I pay my dues regularly, I would feel free to copy them if I needed to.

As I said earlier, I take my private library pretty seriously. When I mentioned loaning books occasionally, I should have stated that there are only three people I would consider sharing with - and one of those is my mother. The only times any of us loan/copy for each other is when the original is out of print therefor unavailable.

There have been others who have asked to borrow my books, and to them I always say no.

Neither one of my two LYS will make copies of anything for public use, and in that I completely support them. I also do NOT personally approve of groups sharing copies of a pattern for knit alongs - even when that event is for charity.

We've had lengthy discussions about copyright law here before, and I agree that it can be confusing and controversial. It's my belief that when in doubt one should always err on the side of caution. If there is any question about the morallity or legality of doing something - such as copy a pattern - it is best to not do it.

I do have friends who are published writers, and I know how little they actually make on a book that may have taken years of work to create. That's why I never, ever regret purchasing a book/pattern - even if it ultimately goes unused.

Kristin
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knottyknitter
Permanent Resident

USA
3702 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  7:47:27 PM  Show Profile Send knottyknitter a Private Message
As far as an LYS copying a pattern vs. you copying a pattern from a book in the library, there is also one other very big differentiation. That's the fact that although the LYS may not charge for the copy (boy, that would be even more unethical, but I've heard of it happening!), they are still doing it to fill their own pockets - they're doing it so you'll buy the yarn to make the project from them, so they have a lot to gain in the process, and the designer is due their share of that!
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gabsmom
Gabber Extraordinaire

380 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2004 :  8:40:01 PM  Show Profile Send gabsmom a Private Message
My take on copyrights of knitting patterns is that you can only make a copy of a pattern if it's for your own use from a book you own. If you purchase a book, you can make a copy of a pattern so you can scribble and make notes and enlarge it if need be. I seem to remember that one is not supposed to make photocopies of patterns checked out of the library. Of course, there isn't a Kinko's police so who would know? I guess the point is that designers make their fair share from creating patterns thereby giving them more opportunities to make even more fabulous patterns.
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klfrazier
Permanent Resident

1745 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2004 :  10:01:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit klfrazier's Homepage Send klfrazier a Private Message
Because I wasn't entirely sure I was right about libraries, and because I figured we should have the truth of the matter, I just spoke with one of the head librarians at our public library.

Yes, you are allowed to make copies of patterns in their books even when the copyright is current. Libraries do fall under laws of "Fair Use" (the official title) and so they have the rights for public use of the materials they hold. The librarian said that copying is allowed / legal so long as you aren't copying the entire book or are going to make a profit from those copies. I assume that also covers handing those copies out to everyone you know.

I'm glad I made the call, because I was getting confused too.

Kristin
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knittykat
Seriously Hooked

USA
710 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2004 :  10:32:49 AM  Show Profile Send knittykat a Private Message
Now I no longer have to feel guilty about checking knitting books out of the library and copying patterns!

Kat in Illinois
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ChristinaP
Permanent Resident

USA
1089 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2004 :  10:43:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit ChristinaP's Homepage Send ChristinaP a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by knottyknitter

I'm not a librarian - maybe someone here is though. However, I believe that a certain amount of copying from library books is acceptable and that libraries actually pay more for their books to take this into account (higher royalties, licensing fees - whatever). Am I correct? I don't remember where I heard this, but I have an amazing ability to retain this sort of trivia.


Videos are different - you can actually buy a copy for public display....
as for books, libraries do not pay more (they usually pay 30-40% less due to volume discounts). Fair use of the book is that the same library copy can be borrowed an infinite number of times. If the book has a section ripped out, the library can photocopy another branch's copy and paste that in, etc. Library borrowers do not have the right to photocopy entire sections from books. A page or two may be ok, but not an entire section. You also do not have the right to check out library CDs and rip them to MP-3. Kristin- you may not redistribute copies you make - libraries can't even do this for interlibrary loan. They have to make new copies and can only loan each article something like 5 times.

<quote>
I think you are right - once a library purchases a book they also purchase the rights for public use. That includes copying from the book for whatever reason. If it were not allowed, there would be no copy machines in libraries.
</quote>
This is flat out wrong! Most copy machines in libraries have posted on them that you may not use them to break the law. (title 17?) Just because technology allows you to do something doesn't mean the law does. Libraries do not purchase ANY special rights for books.

You may lend your own copy of the book as many times as you like. Anyone can read it but you can't make copies. Now, if you want to make a copy of your own book so that you can write on it, that's ok... as long as you have the original book. You should destroy the copy when you're done.

Christina P.
A librarian

In Maryland
Blog: http://christinasknitting.blogspot.com
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Grey
Chatty Knitter

160 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2004 :  11:22:52 AM  Show Profile Send Grey a Private Message
Leaving aside what the actual law is, a little common sense and thinking about what's in both your best interest and the interest of the designer is a good answer.

If I were a designer, and had a book out (lets say for arguments sake it has ten patterns in it and costs $20), its acutally in my interest is a person lends the book to a friend. After all, the friend may be new to knitting and probably doesn't want to pay $20 dollars for a book when all they want to do is make their first sweater. On the other hand, when the book borrower is in the LYS looking for patterns for a future project, they may remember that they liked that sweater pattern in that book, and are more likely to shell out the $20 for that or another pattern book. On the other hand, if the friend gets to photocopy every pattern in the book, that would be taking money away from the designer.

Understanding is a three-edged sword
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klfrazier
Permanent Resident

1745 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2004 :  2:38:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit klfrazier's Homepage Send klfrazier a Private Message
Christina P -

In my last post I stated exactly what I was told when I contacted my local library. We have a very large library, and I trust that the head librarian's info on fair use and copying is correct. I did state that copying large sections was not allowed and that I was pretty sure redistribution wasn't allowed either.

Yes, I was wrong about the concept of purchasing rights. Sorry. That's why I called the library rather than continue to go on what I thought I knew. I absolutely agree that just because the technology is there doesn't mean that it is ok to break the law, and I would never do so.

I'm glad we finally had a librarian step into this conversation to clear things up, but I resent the fact that you went back to an earlier post of mine to point out how wrong I was after I had already called the library to clear it up. It was unneccessary to point out individuals when further explaining fair use.

Here are my problems with all of this - I know you can check things out repeatedly under fair use, but I don't do that because I don't think that's fair to other people who might want to use that book. I also would want a copy of the pattern anyway because I knit in many different places and dont want to haul the book around because I don't want to hurt it. What about someone who can't afford to buy their own copy?

This is a moot point for me. As I stated when this conversation began, the few books I've checked out from the library and loved I've wound up buying anyway. I am now VERY glad that I am in a position to do so.

Kristin
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knitlethab
Seriously Hooked

Canada
604 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2004 :  6:35:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit knitlethab's Homepage Send knitlethab a Private Message
It is nice to hear that fellow knitters are very protective of designer's rights. I hope others have a good understanding why when one does not want to copy a particular pattern for them (because the book is too expensive)the answer has to be "no". Just a little info you might not know....patterns do not make the yarn importers and manufacturers much money[the yarn pays for the patterns (leaflets do not reflect the cost)]...they make their money by promoting their yarns through their patterns. Did you notice that your LYS do not usually carry an excessive amount of patterns. Did you ever notice that a lot of yarns (European's mostly) do not have pattern back up? It is expensive to put out patterns and they hope you will be able to use patterns from other companies. Designers will tell you how expensive it is. We all like to stay in business and copying a pattern and selling it for $1.00 isn't good business.
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